Posts by Nate Merit

20

MATTHEW 24:34 !!!

by Nate Merit in

[ homepage ] [ up ][ heaven ][ debates and speeches ].

the skeptical review version may be found at:.

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html .

Greetings Empress (?) Greendawn

Thanks for taking the time to slog through all these references. Mark Smith, at JCnot4me.com has a videotape (for sale) of a debate he held with a well known minister in Orange County. He mopped the floor with the guy. Even after helping the minister as much as possible to prepare for the debate. (Mark wanted it to be a good debate) You can email Mark at [email protected] to inquire about ordering a copy. I have a copy and I can attest that it's highly effective in destroying literalist belief that Matthew 24:34 actually applies to some future generation. Who knows? You might be able to get a JW friend or family member to watch a video even though they won't read printed materials.

Nate

20

MATTHEW 24:34 !!!

by Nate Merit in

[ homepage ] [ up ][ heaven ][ debates and speeches ].

the skeptical review version may be found at:.

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html .

Nate Merit

[ Homepage ] [ Up ] [ Heaven ] [ Debates and Speeches ]

The article below was originally published in The Skeptical Review, July/August 2000 issue. The Skeptical Review version may be found at:

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html

This article has also been put up on a Preterist CHRISTIAN web site: http://www.preteristarchive.com/GeneralStudies/media_smith-mark.html

Matthew 24:34

What The Scholars Say

Mark Smith July 2000

Truly I say to you, this generation [Greek: genea] will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matthew 24:34 NASB

Return for a moment to your pre-teen days. Every neighborhood had one of them, the kid whose sole goal was to win the game at all costs. This kid, if in the middle of a game and losing, would make up his own rules, or redefine words, whatever it took to ensure that he'd win the game. As we all moved up into high school, many of our games acquired referees, we matured enough to follow the rules, and these childish antics were halted.

Certain Christians, however, never matured enough to play by the rules, and instead, to save their savior from being a FALSE PROPHET, create out of thin air new definitions for old words. They try to change the standard definition of the New Testament word generation (from Matthew 24:34) from what it actually is into something else; a group of people that have things in common, and maybe a half dozen other variations- all equally bogus, and all designed to get their savior off the hook. For example, by one of these bogus definitions, Julius Caesar and I are of the same generation, as we both have "things in common" (eating, breathing, sleeping, etc.). The other bogus definitions are just as ridiculous.

Because of this intellectually dishonest abuse of language, some Christians need to have a "referee" curb their creativity in making up rules and definitions, which they make up solely to win arguments. Dictionaries already exist, scholars already have done the dog work, rules are already in place. These are our referees. And as you will see from what follows below, the vast majority of Christian scholarship shows that there is little doubt as to what the word "generation" (Greek: "genea") really means.

The consensus of the referees will be stated below without comment, because no comments are necessary. Readers who want to know the sources of the quotations can match the numbers before the quotations with the numbers in the listings of translations, commentaries, lexicons, etc. at the end of the article. Enjoy!

Fifty-Two Translations: Matthew 24:34.

(1) Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

(2) This generation will not have passed before all this is accomplished.

(3) By no means may this generation be passing by until....

(4) This generation shall not pass away till all these things....

(5) Before the present generation passes away, these things will all happen.

(6) This generation will not pass away....

(7) In no wise shall this generation pass away until all these things shall happen.

(8) This generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.

(9) This generation will not disappear till all this has taken place.

(10) This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things....

(11) ...this generation will not pass away....

(12) ...this generation will not pass away....

(13) ...this generation shall not pass away till....

(14) This generation may not pass away till all these things...

(15) ...this generation shall not pass away....

(16) ...this generation shall not pass away....

(17) ...this generation will not come to an end....

(18) This generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place.

(19) This generation will not disappear until these things happen....

(20) This generation shall not pass until....

(21) In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

(22) This generation shall not pass....

(23) This generation shall not pass away....

(24) Before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place.

(25) This generation will not pass away....

(26) This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

(27) The present generation will not pass away until all this takes place.

(28) These people will not pass away till all this happens.

(29) This generation will not pass away....

(30) This generation shall not pass away....

(31) This generation will not pass away before all these things have taken place.

(32) This generation will not come to an end till all these things are complete.

(33) This generation will by no means pass away before all these things take place.

(34) This generation will not pass away....

(35) Before this generation passes away, all these things will happen.

(36) This generation will not pass away....

(37) This generation will not pass away....

(38) Indeed, I can give you solemn assurance that this generation will not have passed away before all this has taken place.

(39) This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.

(40) I tell you, even the present generation will not pass away, till all these things have taken place.

(41) The people of this day will not pass away before all these things have happened.

(42) The present generation shall not pass away till all these things happen.

(43) This present generation shall not pass away until all these things arrive.

(44) The present generation will not pass away till all this happens.

(45) I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all.

(46) I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place.

(47) I assure you, all these things will take place before this present generation passes on.

(48) I swear to God, this generation certainly won't pass into oblivion before all these things take place!

(49) I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

(50) Truly, I tell you, this generation--that is, the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period--will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.

(51) I tell you the truth--all these things will happen while the people of this time are still living!

(52) Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Five Greek Lexicons: genea.

(1) The interval of time between father & son... from thirty to forty years those living in any one period; this present generation.

(2) A generation of mankind, a step in genealogy.

(3) A generation, an interval in time.

(4) The whole multitude of men living at the same time--Mt xxiv.34... used esp. of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.

(5) The sum total of those born at the same time... all those living at the same time... contemporaries... Mt. 24:34.

Twenty-Five Bible Dictionaries: genea.

(1) Those born at the same time constitute a generation... contemporaries.

(2) Thus Herodotus says that "three generations of men make an hundred years."

(3) It is used of people living at the same time, and by extension... of the time itself... 40 years.

(4) Of the 43 references to genea in the NT... 25 (are) of its occurrences to the Jewish people in the time of Jesus.

(5) The whole multitude of men living at the same time. A period ordinarily occupied by each successive generation, say, of thirty or forty years.

(6) It mostly denotes "generation" in the sense of contemporaries... Mt. 24:34. This generation is to be understood temporally.

(7) The age or period of a body of contemporaries.... The generation lasts as long as any of the members survive.

(8) ... from thirty to forty years....

(9) ... the sum total of individuals forming a contemporary group.

(10) The period of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their children... most biblical writers seem to consider thirty to forty years a normal generation.

(11) ...the period from a man's birth to that of his son--and collectively the people who live in that period.

(12) ...the period of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their children... the term simply refers to all people living at a particular time.

(13) A body of people who live at the same time in a given period of history.

(14) ...from thirty to forty years... contemporaries.

(15) Used in the general sense of a period of time, the span of one human life, or those who live at a particular period of time.

(16) The "circle" of life, spanning from a man's birth to that of his son... forty years.

(17) Mt. 24:34--"This generation" equals the persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(18) The age or period of a body of contemporaries....

(19) Mt. 24:34--"This generation" equals the persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(20) ...about 25 years. A generation is all the people living at about the same period of time, Mt 24:34.

(21) In general, the word generation in the Bible refers to any contemporary group.

(22) It was fixed by some at 100 years, by others at 110, by others at 33, 25, and even at 20 years.

(23) Of all men living at any given time... Mt 24:34... a period of about 30 to 33 years.

(24) Matt xxiv.34, "This generation shall not pass...." All who are at present living shall not be dead when this shall come to pass. There are some at this day living, who shall be witnesses of the evils which I have foretold shall befall the Jews.

(25) We must adhere to the ordinary usage, according to which dor signifies an age, or the men living in a particular age.

Six Bible Encyclopedias: genea.

(1) Genea refers to a period of time loosely defined as the time between a parent's prime and that of his child.... Those living at a given time in history are referred to as a generation.

(2) Matt. 24:34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(3) Genea: It has the concept of the sum total of those born at the same time--contemporaries.

(4) Genea means the generation of persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(5) Matt. xxix.34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(6) "The present generation" comprises all those who are now alive. Matt xxiv.34, some now living shall witness the event foretold. Our Lord uses the term to express a period of about 36 or 37 years... say about A.D. 70.

Sixteen Bible Commentaries: genea.

(1) ...verse 34 solemnly promises that Jesus will return while some of his contemporaries are still alive (a reprise of 16:28).... The gospel testimony provides strong support for this view: Jesus did not know all things.

(2) (This generation) can only with the greatest of difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.

(3) "This generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus.

(4) The statement in verse 34 is a difficult one. If generation is to be taken in this strict sense, then "all these things" must be limited to the events culminating in A.D. 70.... The majority of the best scholars today insist that generation be taken in its strictest sense.

(5) Jesus was quite certain that they would happen within the then living generation.

(6) [Matthew] probably believed, however, that the end could come before all of Jesus' hearers had died.

(7) Further, he [Jesus] insists that his words are infallible, and that they are more certain than the material universe itself....

(8) This verse recalls 16.28, and affirms that some of the disciples would live to see the Parousia. This would presuppose a relatively early date for the event.... Was Jesus in error in his prediction of the nearness of the end?

(9) In the Old Testament a generation was reckoned as forty years. This is the natural way to take verse 34.... He plainly stated in verse 34 that those events would take place in that generation.... One may, of course, accuse Jesus of hopeless confusion.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the end within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

(10) The hard fact still remains that if Jesus spoke the sayings of St. Mark xiii and St. Matthew xxiv... he misjudged the extent of his own knowledge and uttered a definite prediction which was not fulfilled.

(11) The Synoptists fell into the contradiction... of making Jesus declare at one moment that He did not know the time of the glorious Advent, and at another that it would infallibly happen within that generation.

(12) The affirmation that "all these things" will happen in this generation is clear, and there is no reason to alter the meaning of the word generation from its usual sense except a fear that the Scriptures may be in error if it is not so altered.

(13) Indeed, the fulfillment will take place before this present generation has passed away.

(14) Did Jesus expect the end within the lifetime of those who heard him speak? It seems quite certain that the early church so understood him.

(15) Matthew made it clear that some of the first disciples would live to see the Parousia.

(16) ... v. 34; there are those now alive, who shall see Jerusalem destroyed.

Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: genea & Matthew 24:34.

(1) Rev. Chuck Smith: As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years.

(2) Dr. David Friedrich Strauss: ...the word genea... was put to the torture....

(3) George Murry: If the saying relates to the parousia, it sets the end time within the bounds of the first generation church. The phrase "this generation" should cause no difficulty for interpreters... It always signifies his [Jesus'] contemporaries.

(4) Dr. Albert Schweitzer: And He [Jesus] was to come, moreover, within the lifetime of the generation to which He had proclaimed the nearness of the Kingdom of God.

(5) Gary DeMar: No future generation of Jews is meant here.

(6) Rev. Stuart Russell: Next, our Lord sums up with an affirmation calculated to remove every vestige of doubt or uncertainty, "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." One would reasonably suppose that after a note of time so clear and express there could not be room for controversy. Our Lord Himself has settled the question. Ninety-nine persons in every hundred would undoubtedly understand His words as meaning that the predicted catastrophe would fall within the lifetime of the existing generation. Not that all would live to witness it, but that most or many would. There can be no question that this would be the interpretation which the disciples would place upon the words.... His coming... would come to pass before the existing generation had wholly passed away, and within the limits of their own lifetime.

(7) Edward Gibbon: [Members of the primitive church] were obliged to expect the second and glorious coming of the Son of Man in the clouds before that generation was totally extinguished which had beheld his humble condition upon the earth.

(8) Rev. Milton Terry: The words immediately preceding them show the absurdity of applying them to another generation than that of the apostles: "When ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." The teaching of Jesus was emphatic beyond all rational question that that generation should not pass away before all those things of which they inquired should be fulfilled.

(9) Dr. William Lane Craig: Two generations past the time of Jesus lands you in the 2nd Century.

Thirteen Scholars: The "Race" Argument.

(1) Douglas Hare : Some have argued, for example, that "this generation" refers not to Jesus' contemporaries but to the Jewish nation or to the church. The linguistic evidence in favor of such proposals is not impressive.

(2) Alan Hugh M'Neile : "This generation" cannot mean the Jews as a people, believers in Christ, or the future generation that will experience these things. It must be the particular generation of Jews to whom, or of whom, the words were spoken.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the End within the lifetime of His contemporaries.

(3) Clifton Allen : The meaning of "this generation" is much disputed. Efforts like those of Jerome, to make it mean the Jewish race, or of Origen and Chrysostom, to refer it to all Christians, are arbitrary, and are to be rejected. "This generation" refers to the contemporaries of Jesus.

(4) Heinrich Meyer : Ver. 34. Declaration to the effect that all this is to take place before the generation then living should pass away. (It is) well-nigh absurd (the) manner in which it has been attempted to force into the word genea such meaning as: The Creation, The Human Race, The Jewish Nation, The Class of Men Consisting of My Believers, The Generation of the Elect Now in Question, The Future Generation Which is to Witness Those Events... (The Second Coming) is to occur during the lifetime of the generation then existing.

(5) R.T. France : (Genea) has been taken to mean The Jewish Race, or Unbelieving Judaism. It is unlikely that such an improbable meaning for the noun would have been suggested at all without the constraint of apologetic embarrassment...! Jesus was wrong.

(6) Floyd Filson : The end... will come within a generation. Attempts to translate genea as: Human Race, Jewish Race are misguided; the word refers to the generation living when Jesus spoke.

(7) P. Davids, F.F. Bruce, M. Brauch : This has been regarded as a hard saying.... Plainly the idea that the human race is meant cannot be entertained; every description of (the end of the world) implies that human beings will be around to witness it.... Nor is there much more to be said for the idea the Jewish race is meant; there is no hint anywhere in the New Testament that the Jewish race will cease to exist before the end of the world. In any case, what point would there be in such a vague prediction? It would be as much as to say, "At some time in the indefinite future all these things will take place." Jesus' hearers could have understood him to mean only that "all these things" would take place within their generation.... The phrase always means the generation now living.

(8) Bible Commentary: ...seems to require us here to translate the word genea as meaning "generation," not, as it is sometimes rendered, race or people. (Generation) is the usual meaning.

(9) Rev. Patrick Fairbairn : It has been maintained by some that... our Lord identified generation with the Jewish race.... But that is a very forced explanation; and not a single example can be produced of an entirely similar use of the word. Whatever difficulties may hang around the interpretation of that part of Christ's discourse, it is impossible to understand by "the generation that was not to pass away" anything but the existing race of men living at the time when the word was spoken.

(10) Bruce Chilton: Some have sought to get around the force of (Mt. 24:34) by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation, and see if it ever means "race" in any other context.... Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can smile at such a transparent error ....

(11) Dr. Albert Schweitzer : These words (Mt. 24:34) must be strained into meaning, not that generation, but the Jewish people. Thus by exegetical art they are saved forever, for the Jewish race will never die out.

(12) Rev. Milton Terry: The various meanings which, under the pressure of a dogmatic (crisis), have been put upon the phrase "this generation" must appear in the highest degree absurd to an unbiased critic. It has been explained (away) as meaning: The Human Race [Jerome], The Jewish Race [Dorner], The Race of Christian Believers [Chrysostom].

(13) Rev. Stuart Russell: It has been contended by many that in (Mt 24:34) the word genea should be rendered "race" or "nation...." But we think... without any shadow of doubt that the expression "this generation" so often employed by our Lord, always refers solely and exclusively to His contemporaries, the Jewish people of His own period.

References

References for 52 Translations of Matthew 24:34.

1) New American Standard Bible, 2) The Holy Bible [Knox], 3) Concordant Literal New Testament, 4) The Modern Reader's Bible, 5) The Complete Bible: An American Translation, 6) The New Testament [Cunnington], 7) The Emphasized New Testament, 8) The New King James Bible, 9) The New Testament in Modern English, 10) The New International Version, 11) New Revised Standard Version, 12) Revised Standard Version, 13) The New Testament [Anderson], 14) Young's Literal Translation, 15) American Standard Version, 16) King James Version, 17) Bible in Basic English, 18) Darby Bible, 19) International Standard Version, 20) 21st Century King James Version, 21) A Literal Translation of The Bible, 22) Green's Modern King James Version, 23) The Bible in Living English, 24) The New Jerusalem Bible, 25) The New Testament [Revised Rheims], 26) The New World Translation, 27) The New American Bible, 28) An American Translation, 29) The Riverside New Testament, 30) The New Testament [Wesley], 31) The Good News According to Matthew, 32) The New Testament in Basic English, 33) The Authentic New Testament, 34) The Corrected English New Testament, 35) The Four Gospels: A New Translation, 36) The New Testament According To The Eastern Text, 37) [A pre-published translation from the Aramaic by Alexander], 38) God's New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, 39) Tyndale's New Testament, 40) The Twentieth Century New Testament, 41) The New Life Testament, 42) Centenary Translation of the New Testament, 43) The Holy Bible in Modern English, 44) The Bible: A New Translation, 45) The New English Bible, 46) The New Testament in Modern Speech, 47) The Berkeley Version, 48) The Scholar's Version, 49) Holy Bible: Contemporary English Version, 50) The Amplified New Testament, 51) The Everyday Bible, New Century Version, 52) Today's English Version.

References for 5 Greek Lexicons: genea.

1) Greek & English Lexicon of the New Testament [Robinson], 2) The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, 3) The Analytical Lexicon To The Greek New Testament [Mounce], 4) Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 5) A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, Vol. 1 [Arndt & Gingrich].

References for 25 Bible Dictionaries: genea.

1) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 2) The Imperial Bible Dictionary, 3) New Bible Dictionary, 4) Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, 5) An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, 6) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament [Kittel], 7) The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, 8) Smith's Bible Dictionary, 9) Harper's Bible Dictionary, 10) The Harper Collins Bible Dictionary, 11) The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, 12) Mercer Dictionary of the Bible, 13) Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 14) Peloubet's Bible Dictionary, 15) Concise Dictionary of The Bible, 16) The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, 17) Easton's Bible Dictionary, 18) Davis Dictionary of the Bible, 19) Today's Dictionary of the Bible, 20) A Dictionary of the Bible and Christian Doctrine in Everyday English, 21) Dictionary of The Bible, 22) A Biblical and Theological Dictionary, 23) A Dictionary of the Bible, 24) Cruden's Dictionary of Bible Terms, 25) The New Unger's Bible Dictionary.

References for 6 Bible Encylopedia: genea.

1) The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 2) The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopaedia, 3) Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 4) Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, 5) The Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, 6) The Comprehensive Critical & Explanatory Bible Encyclopaedia.

References for 16 Bible Commentaries: genea.

1) Matthew [Hare], 2) The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 3) Commentary on the Gospel of Mark [Wm Lane], 4) The Wesleyan Bible Commentary [Earle], 5) The Expositor's Greek Testament [Bruce], 6) The Interpreter's Bible, 7) The Gospel of Matthew [Robinson], 8) New Century Bible: The Gospel of Matthew, 9) Word Pictures in the New Testament [A.T. Robinson], 10) Primitive Christian Eschatology [Dewick], 11) The Eschatology of Jesus [Muirhead], 12) The Jerome Biblical Commentary, 13) The Interpreter's Bible [vol. 7], 14), The Interpreter's Bible [vol. 8], 15) Peake's Commentary, 16) The NIV Matthew Henry Commentary.

References for Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: genea & Matthew 24:34.

1) Future Survival, Chuck Smith, The Word for Today, Costa Mesa, CA 1978, page 17
2) The Life of Jesus Critically Examined, Dr. David Friedrich Strauss, Sigler Press, Ramsey, NJ 1994, page 587
3) Jesus and The Last Days, George Murray, Hendrickson Pub., Peabody, Mass. 1993, pages 443-444
4) The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, Macmillian, NY, 1968, page 240
5) Last Days Madness, Gary DeMar, American Vision Inc., Atlanta, GA 1994, page 114
6) The Parousia, Stuart Russell, T. Fisher Unwin Pub., London, 1887, page 84
7) The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon, Penguin Books, NY 1985, page 276
8) Apocalypse of The Gospels, Milton Terry, (1819), chapter 18 reprinted and its pages renumbered in 1992 by John Bray, PO Box 90129, Lakeland, FL 33804, pages 34 & 38
9) Dr. William Lane Craig lecture attended by Mark Smith, given at Hope Chapel, Hermosa Beach, CA, 1-11-99, statement @ 8:33 PM

References for 13 Scholars: The "Race" Argument.

1) Matthew, Douglas Hare, John Knox Press, Louisville, Kentucky, 1993, p. 281
2) The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, Alan Hugh M'Neile, Macmillan & Co., London 1949, p. 354-355
3) The Broadman Bible Commentary, Vol. 8, Clifton Allen, ed., Broadman Press, Nashville, TN 1969, p. 221
4) Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book To The Gospel of Matthew, Heinrich Meyer (1883), Alpha Pub., Winona Lake, IN 1980, p. 426
5) The Gospel According to Matthew, R.T. France, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, MI, 1985, p. 346
6) A Commentary on The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Floyd Filson, Adam & Charles Black Pub., London, 1960, p. 257
7) Hard Sayings of the Bible, W. Kaiser, P. Davids, F.F. Bruce, M. Brauch, InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, Ill, 1996, pp. 445-448
8) Bible Commentary, Vol. 1, Charles Scribner's Sons, NY 1901, p. 144
9) The Imperial Bible Dictionary, Vol. II, Rev. Patrick Fairbairn, Blackie & Son, London, 1885, p. 352
10) The Great Tribulation, David Chilton, Dominion Press, Ft. Worth, TX 1987, p. 3
11) The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, Macmillian, NY, 1968, p. 22
12) Apocalypse of The Gospels, Milton Terry (1819), chapter 18 reprinted and its pages renumbered in 1992 by John Bray, PO Box 90129, Lakeland, FL 33804, p. 34
13) The Parousia, J. Stuart Russell, T. Fisher Unwin Pub., London, 1887, p. 85

Other web sites to check out for further research:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/matthew_24-34_translations.html

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15

I'm livid & angry & sick!!!

by mamochan13 in

i've finally had the opportunity to read the october 1, 2005 watchtower regarding education.

even though this board had already prepared me for what i was going to be seeing, it still surprised me.

i cannot believe that they are still demonizing post secondary education.

Nate Merit

Hey Nico

Its great to see the WTBTS set on sel-destruct. Thats almost as good as winning a small lottery.

Nate

59

Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic

by trem in

i know that this may have been treated before but i still need your valuable suggestions.. rev 7:4 says "and i heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of israel", veses 5 to 8 provides additional details that 12,000 were selected from the 12 tribes of israel.

the book of numbers 1: 20-42 lists the following as the 12 tribes of natural israel: reu ben, sim eon, gad, judah, is sachar, zeb ulun, e phraim, manas seh, benjamin, dan, ash er and naph tali.

however, rev 7:5-8 did not list the tribes of ephraim and dan but instead listed 10 approved tribes with 2 non approved tribes of levi and joseph.

Nate Merit

In a book brimming over with truly bizarre imagery and symbolism, you ask if 144,000 is literal or symbolic. Let me see...hmmm...is the Great Whore literal or symbolic? How about the four riders? How about the monster?

Since the number is actually 144 thousands (plural)+, check it out in your Kingdom Linear), I'd say that's a further reinforcement of its symbolic nature.

Nate

Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.

Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbours,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.

Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don’t know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.

Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
Live in a swamp and be three dimensional,
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Get all excited and go to a yawning festival.

O.K. everybody!

Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.

Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
(O.K. everybody on this!)
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbours,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.
(Let ‘em hear you outside!)

Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
(Everybody sing!)
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don’t know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.

(Ladies only)
Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
(Now the men)
Live in a swamp and be three-dimensional,
(Everybody)
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Go into a closet and suck eggs.

— Steve Martin

15

I'm livid & angry & sick!!!

by mamochan13 in

i've finally had the opportunity to read the october 1, 2005 watchtower regarding education.

even though this board had already prepared me for what i was going to be seeing, it still surprised me.

i cannot believe that they are still demonizing post secondary education.

Nate Merit

Speaking from both sides of the fence, clergy and laity, I have concluded that religion attracts a certain mentality and emotional makeup. The more irrational and authoritarian the religion, the more extreme the mental and emotional makeup of those attratced to the religion. Remember, religion is about believing in fairy tales into adulthood. Adults who believe in fairy tales need help, for they are stunted in every way an adult can be stunted. They have retreated into a fairy-tale because they cannot handle the reality of what the world and adult life is like. Only their world of make-believe keeps them going, so they must believe the fairy-tales with fervor. The greater the fervor, the more emotionally unstable and mentally defective the religionist.

Religious functionaries, clergy (such as Baptist ministers and Buddhist priests) are a refined type of con-man. Certainly, many are nice people are try to help their congregants, but at core they are con-men. When I was a Baptist minister and Buddhist priest, I had moments of realization of what I was and what I was doing. That's a big reason I am no longer a con-man wearing a clerical collar.

Evidently, you have awoken from the fairy-tale but are surounded by family who are still immersed in make-believe. You're in a tough position, especially being a JW. Try to realize deep inside yourself that you cannot help these people. Their lives are their lives. They have chosen to stay in the nuthouse, no one is forcing them. The reason for this is your own peace of mind. The younger of my two sisters in a fire-breathing Southern Baptist, and she is deeply immersed in the literalist Christian fantasy. I love her, but cannot do anyting for her. So I give myself a break and let her live her life, such as it is.

Life is brief and full of strife. Try to eliminate those sources of strife you have control over. This is one of them. You have complete control over your feelings and reactions to your familys involvement in the WTBTS fantasy.

Here is a rap song I wrote a few years back when I was learning to distance myself from the religiosity of my sisters and cousins:

Religion Is A Crutch

by: "Brutha Nate"

Religion is a CRUTCH
for those that can't hack it
Religion ain't NOTHIN'
but a FUNERAL RACKET!

Get you focused on DEATH
instead of focused on LIFE
Use you all up
stab your heart with a KNIFE!

Clergy BUGGER your children
They SQUANDER your cash
They jabber 'bout Heaven
while they dive for the cash!

Bunch of ego-trippin' liars
with their head up their ass
They take your confession
and blackmail your ass!

They tell everyone
what they all want to hear
Tell them all the old lies
to calm all their fears

Religious folks are like KIDS
they want daddy or mom
To kiss all their boo-boo's
Keep 'em safe from The Bomb

Well there AIN'T no Cosmic Parent
Ain't no Spirit in the Sky!
All we have is each other
get it RIGHT or we'll DIE!

Nate

40

Jude and 1 Enoch

by Leolaia in

use of 1 enoch elsewhere in jude.

jude 4 = 1 enoch 48:8-10, 81:1-2, 108:6-7 .

jude 6 = 1 enoch 10:4-12, 12:4, 15:3-7 .

Nate Merit

Hello Leolaia

This is the most fascinating essay I have ever read concerning Enoch and Jude. I'm storing this essay on my computer as well.

Nate

33

The Septuagint or the Hebrew Text, Which Should Christians Choose?

by Nate Merit in

(the following article by nathaniel j merritt was originally published in 1996 in the now-defunct orthodox way magazine, a small theological journal which explored obscure or controversial issues in the eastern orthodox spiritual tradition.

should christians embrace the greek septuagint translation of the old testament or the hebrew text?

if we are jews, then by all means let us embrace the hebrew text.

Nate Merit

LOL dont hold your breath for that follow-up on the Byzantine text-type! My Nonsense Generator can't handle the wattage required!

Nate

33

The Septuagint or the Hebrew Text, Which Should Christians Choose?

by Nate Merit in

(the following article by nathaniel j merritt was originally published in 1996 in the now-defunct orthodox way magazine, a small theological journal which explored obscure or controversial issues in the eastern orthodox spiritual tradition.

should christians embrace the greek septuagint translation of the old testament or the hebrew text?

if we are jews, then by all means let us embrace the hebrew text.

Nate Merit

Thank you for the links! If you wrote, its worth reading.

Nate

33

The Septuagint or the Hebrew Text, Which Should Christians Choose?

by Nate Merit in

(the following article by nathaniel j merritt was originally published in 1996 in the now-defunct orthodox way magazine, a small theological journal which explored obscure or controversial issues in the eastern orthodox spiritual tradition.

should christians embrace the greek septuagint translation of the old testament or the hebrew text?

if we are jews, then by all means let us embrace the hebrew text.

Nate Merit

LOL! I love it! I snuck this thing back here to see if it would just be left alone and wind up being archived, or torn to bits as it should be! Man, this place is thorough.

How do you keep track of so many posts? I need to explore more thoroughly how this site works.

Via con nachos,
Nate

4

Chip off the old block

by peacefulpete in

did mark intend to depict jesus as a carpenter?

the answer appears obviously yes as mark 6:3 reads in most translations: .

55is not this the carpenter's son?

Nate Merit

'Tekton' means one who works with stone, iron, and wood. An artisan, not simply a carpenter.

However, since Jesus is a Myth, I don't mind if the gospel writers portrayed him as a chimney sweep. "Roight good job ah did tuh-day guv." "Crikey Christ, ya outdid yerself this toime! An extra bob for ya!" "Thanks guv. 'Ave you 'eard the werd o' gawd today guv?"

Nate